Newsletter, May 19 2016 No. 196
It is unfortunate for the militaria collecting world that a number of purported “expert” sites are so badly flawed as to be completely useless. As a case in point, Dr. Frank Thayer, an advanced collector of SS militaria, wrote a comprehensive article on the Robert Dold SS enlisted man’s belt buckle. This was covered in the respectable ‘Military Advisor’ and is very accurate in all respects. Accuracy, however, plays no part in the makeup of the Wehrmacht Awards Forum and true to form a dealer wrote an hysterical condemnation of the article which was duly posted on the site. The original RODO buckles did not have raised lettering on the inside but instead, the company name was stamped into the steel. Also, the hook for the belt on originals was set at an angle. The author of the WAF article showed pictures of a very crude recent manufactured piece and claimed that this one was the true original! Herewith, we are reprinting the Military Advisor article for the interest of the collecting public and to show what genuine research consists of.
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59 thoughts on “Newsletter, May 19 2016 No. 196”
” On 16 December 1951, Württemberg-Baden, Württemberg-Hohenzollern and Baden voted in favor of a joint merger via referendum. Baden-Württemberg officially became a state in Germany on 25 April 1952.”
So, how could a state formed only in 1952 could be appear on a supposedly pre-1945 box?
The issue here is not markings on a box but the authenticity of the RODO SS enlisted buckles shown i Dr. Thayer’s Military Advisor article. Perhaps the writer would like to comment on the type face or the color of the box instead of addressing the buckles. This sort of confused obfuscation is typical of the types that flock to the Wehrmacht Awards Forum. And there is no question whatsoever that the RODO buckles in the Thayer article are absolutely genuine to the period.
The Thayer article is concerned with RODO original EM belt buckles. You carefully avoid this and are making a good deal of fuss about a piece of paper. The issue is the buckle and that ought to be obvious. And I might add here that a color picture you sent to Dr. Thayer of what you claim is a “genuine RODO buckle” is a very recent and very poorly detailed Chinese fake, well advertised in reenactor magazines as a replica and selling, to anyone interested (including dealers and world-renowned experts, for $25.00.
Good to know. Matter of fact one of the two pictures of original RODO’s buckles I sent to the author of that article is in my family since October 1944. I did not know we had Chinese SS divisions in France in 1944? Could you please let me know which one it was? On my side I can assure you ALL RODO’S pictured in the article are well known East European fakes you could buy for $15 at the SOS or Max Show. They are named by collectors simply “V chest” fake since one can buy such production with many different markings (as shown by Mr.Thayer with an A&S marking). Of course only fake RODO’s are made with the bended catch/ feet. You were not aware of that?They are now offered on any renactor website if you want to buy one for study.
The above article should be an excellent article if it was labeled “How a fake RODO sales catalog looks like”. Would be perfect since everything is fake from A to Z.
Would it be possible to let other comments from other readers to show ? I heard that several were waiting approval. …
I assume from your posting that you are making a frantic effort to authenticate obviously fake RODO buckles and to make a very disconnected and illogical attempt to divert attention by the WAF readers from Dr. Thayer’s very comprehensive, and very accurate, article. There is no question that the RODO buckles with the offset catch are the only original ones. Specimens with straight catches are fake. Also, all original RODO buckles had the company name stamped into the edge of the buckle, just ahead of the catch. If you believe otherwise, you are deluding yourself. Or, more likely, trying to delude potential customers looking at the WAF articles. In reading over your various postings on militaia sites on belt buckles, it appears very clear to me, and to other genuine and serious collectors, that you have either deluded yourself with recent fakes or are attempting to convince others of both your superior knowledge and the authenticity of known fakes. Why don’t you start a site devoted to SS trouser buttons? There is such a need for true, elevated knowledge in this field. Then you can take off your Belt Buckle Expert feathered cap and don one as a Trouser Button Expert. Further, your statement that there are others “waiting in the queue” to get posted is, like your other statements, entirely false. There are no collectors waiting in line. Wherever did you find this information? You appear to be a confused individual with a strong desire to be recognized. If this is the case, perhaps you could paint your naked body with woad and dash up and down the aisles at the MAX show screaming “Look at me! Look at me!” Or perhaps a better suggestion would be to get your therapist to give you some Prozac and lapse into blessed silence.
“There is no question that the RODO buckles with the offset catch are the only original ones.”
This is the only point I could possibly agree with the joke article or your kind words. But in the article Mr.Thayer shows the well known V chest with the offset catch. Any serious SS buckle collector knows this and is able to see the difference with a genuine RODO with offset catch. But obviously I am wasting my time since both the author and you his promoter do not have a clue what I am saying, and you are stating seeing fakes and forgeries? True, in the kingdom of blinds one eye are kings. You should both be emperors. …
There are still people that believe Jesus will return and take them all to heaven. It is apparent that you know nothing about genuine belt buckles, and most especially, nothing about Robert Dold original productions. And some time ago, collectors were frantically paying $10,000 for “Investment Grade SS Honor Rings.” These very fake rings were cast, not struck as were the originals and the modern maker put the wrong dates on the inside. These rings were awarded but not made after November 11, 1943. When this was posted on my site, the howlings mirrored your own. The raped collectors knew nothing about original rings and it is very evident you know nothing about original RODO buckles. It is said that the empty drum makes the most noise and your screams of anger certainly fit in well with this thesis. Old Maerz used to tell his breathless customers that Knights Crosses with copper or zinc centers and nickle-silver rims were the only original ones when, in truth, they were manufacturer’s samples and only worth a few dollars. But Maerz used to “authenticate” these pieces of junk, for a fee, and helped sell them. I am truly sorry to disrupt your business activities but as I said in an earlier post, why not become a WAF expert on SS trouser buttons? Or perhaps the Panzer General’s black knit socks with embroidered skulls on the heels? Or you could thrill the WAF readership with your articles on “SS General’s Belt Buckle Guns,” or “”SS Paratrooper Folding Damascus Knives.” Why not write a book on “Presentation Rings of the Third Reich?” There is an enterprising fellow in Poland who makes up hundreds of these. I can visualize your chapter on “SS Concentration Camp Oven-Tender Rings.’ And pray do not laugh. They actually make these now for the trusting and eager.
But isn’t it written in the article: “Acquiring the name and address of “RODO” on an actual shipping container is a unique contribution to knowledge of the company and its product” ??
I do agree with the above sentence but the box been now accepted as a forgery, what value does it bring to its content? Any serious collector of buckles for the SS should recognize the so called “V chest” fakes produced since the 90’s in East Europe. Don’t you?
Why I do only see a discussion between you mr. Royster and JP.
Where are the comments send by others? You
are not showing them!!
Because there are no other comments pending. Most of my viewers rarely comment. The excitable WAF viewers, and there are many, have a problem with polysyllabic words so I have heard nothing from them. Yesterday, I had about 1,250 viewers and a number of legitimate buckle collectors wrote me privately that the RODO buckles in Dr. Thayer’s article were all genuine and warned me the old ladies that infest the WAF would soon be screaming and waving their purses around.
That’s what you say. I know a friend did comment as one of the first. I have not seen his comment!
Most probably because he never sent it. Our system does not recognize nonsense names like “Captain Panzerfaust” or “Buckle King.” Given the basic illiteracy of many people,and the massive errors in their postings on other sites, I can understand why someone does not want others to know who he really is. Perhaps your friend would try using his real name and it would appear on my site.
Dear Mr Royster or whatever your name is, I was not going to comment as I am dumbfounded at the article you have written ref the RODO buckles. And trying to pass off these blatant reproduction buckles as genuine is unbelievable!!! The box, catch, pin heads, prongs nothing like original RODO buckles. Please I invite you to come to our forum and do us a teaching thread as to why these buckles are original as I for one would love to know.
I have seen, handled and photographed a number of original Robert Dold (RODO) SS enlisted personnel steel belt buckles. One, in the possession of the Military Advisor author, Dr. Thayer, was purchased by him in Canada 30 years ago, shows much genuine wear and is absolutely original to the period. Another such buckle, originally very dark grey painted, I personally saw, and photographed, in a German collection. This was in 1951. I saw, and obtained, a RODO SS enlisted personnel buckle from a collection in the Russian Military Museum in Moscow in 1982. It matches the other two I have just mentioned. This buckle is steel, was originally enameled olive green and shows old rust on parts of the reverse. Obviously, these three genuine pieces are not the fakes that have flooded the market for years. On all three of these buckles, the logo is hand-stamped on the reverse ahead of the catch. On all three of these, the catch is positioned at an angle, not at a right angle, to the edge of the buckle. This buckle has been extensively faked for a number of years, is in many collections and generally accepted by a number of collectors as original. Unfortunately, the originals are all identical in construction and there are no “variants” or “late war pieces” so beloved of the merchants, and pseudo-experts.
When I pointed out that military decoration preliminary certificates were always, and without any exception, printed on paper that was not reactive to ultra violet (the blacklight) light, loud were the cries of rage but it is a firmly established fact that paper whiteners that cause the ultra violet light to react, were never in any kind of commercial use prior to 1951. The so-called “Anna Frank Diaries” were all written on paper with whiteners and with a ball-point pen which was not invented during the period in which the diaries were purported to have been written. I have, and will publish, illustrated catalogs from manufacturers of all manner of militaria, including belt buckles and, in a number of cases, RODO-marked buckles. When I do this, I am sure that the collecting world will have concrete references. When I published the Chinese catalog for their replicas of Allach porcelain pieces, there was considerable unhappiness amongst the more elite collectors and the loudly expressed belief that the catalog was in error. Unfortunately, it was not and the market in Allach collapsed. Do you believe that a serious collector who, let us say, has a post-war RODO buckle in his collection, would not wish to become aware that the piece is fake? If people wish to delude themselves over such fakes as the Shroud of Turin, the milk of the Virgin Mary, fake, cast “SS Honor Rings” or “Himmler Damascus Letter Openers” that is their folly, not mine. Truth pressed to earth, sir, shall rise again
This is my article on RODO buckles, I own SS and Heer RODO buckles:
Could you please join our forum and comment?
I have no particular interest in joining any forum. It is my experience that the militaria forums now extant are filled with collectors who have neither knowledge nor understanding of the field and spend most of their time in criticisms based on ignorance. And a goodly percentage of the books being produced on the subjects are either designed to improve the writer’s self-image or to sell fakes. One self-proclaimed British “expert” on U-Boat badges assured his fellow forum members that one can “always spot a fake U-Boat badge by looking at the eye of the eagle.” One very prominent dealer had a complete collection of Kriegsmarine badges and told me, in anger, that they were all fake. I examined them and noted the letters ‘R.S.’ raised on the reverse. The dealer assured me these were cheap Souval badges and sold me the collection, as fake, for fifty dollars. What he did not realize that the raised letters were only used by the Souval firm during the war and the post-war pieces bore the marking ‘L/58’ and never had the raised letters. I framed the collection and am entirely pleased with it. Some kind soul informed the dealer of his error and he accused me of robbing him. This is a typical reaction of the crooked dealer when someone scores off him.
Hello, I don’t see my previous comment, so I try to send a new one.
All EM/NCO’buckle in the Thayer’s article are FAKE. The so called V-chest fake, made in east Europe. For buckle collectors, fortunately, this type of fake are very easy to spot. They have MANY wrong features compared to an original RODO.
The overwhelming evidence negates your opinion very clearly. The RODO buckles in the Military Advisor article by Dr. Thayer are ALL GENUINE. RODO buckles now being sold are almost all FAKE and are to be found in what their owners mistakenly believe are ‘genuinely important collections.’ Such recent products of Poland, China, India and even the United States are found in many collections. One can see such collections proudly on display at the major shows, with beaming owners standing behind their tables basking in glory. In fact, their Precious Treasures are worth less than the riker mounts they are displayed in.
I am a buckle collector years ago and I assure that the RODO buckles that appear in the Military Advisors infamous article are bad fakes beyond any doubt
In your opinion, no doubt, but not in that of a number of legitimate buckle collectors. I have an original RODO in my own collection that I have had for many years. It is identical with the ones Dr. Thayer illustrated. Is this a fake? I think not. In fact I know not. I have seen pictures of what purport to be “original RODO buckles” on several internet sites. They may well be original, in that they exist, but they are not original to the World War II period. I also have two German Army RODO buckles that I know are genuine and they are identical in construction to the Thayer pieces. Are they fake? Again, they are not. A picture one of the WAF people sent to Thayer that he claimed he got from a relative who got in in 1945(!) is a recent copy made in China (and illustrated in their catalog) and apparently in many amateur collections even as I write. When I exposed the fake “SS Honor Rings” some time ago, I received many emails almost identical to yours claiming their ring came from a relative and was absolutely original. The fact that pictures of it showed a cast copy with a clearly incorrect date inside did not seem to bother my communicant. In conclusion, I assure you that the Military Advisor article shows the original RODO buckle. That there are many post-war fakes in collections I do not doubt but if a RODO buckle does not look like the ones in the Military Advisor, be assured it is a $10.00 recent fake.
Would it be possible for any of the advanced collectors who have contacted you that believe the Thayer V-Chest RoDo buckles are period originals to comment here and explain their reasoning?
Yes, I am working up an article now. This shows the RODO original buckles, from the back,with the proper catch that has the twisted leg. I have been collecting for many years and have seen many RODO buckles for all branches of service and all of them, rusted, chipped and worn, have that distinctive catch. I have also seen buckles that have been aged and do not have the distinctive catch but do have RODO stamped names. The lettering on these is not exactly like the lettering on original buckles. Also, a study of the obverse of the buckle (its face) shows considerable differences between the original RODO and the postwar generic one. As I just told another correspondent, RODO did not have an RZM contract so a buckle with the improper catch and an RZM mark would be a very bad fake. What the dealers do is to buy, for about $5.00, modern copies of buckles and then stamp RODO onto their reverse surface. Ageing a new buckle is not an impossible task and then they are ready for the market. And with “authentication” from the usual very cooperative forum person, the buckles sell for far more than they cost.And articles like Dr. Thayer’s get screamed at.
We both know the V chest fakes marked RODO also have a catch with twisted leg. THAYER’s box is totally filled with them. I should say than the full panoplie can be seen in this box. This is what helped to sell them. But most likely this text will not pass censure…
I do not know that recent fake RODO buckles have the twisted leg. You say so but given your obvious lack of knowledge, coupled with your association with Gottlieb I do not have any reason to accept your opinions. I deal in fact, not fiction and your approach is obviously the reverse. And Gottlieb’s “Dress SS officer’s belt and buckle” you are authenticating with a CoA is sold by Reddick Militaria for far less than the $5,000 Gottlieb is asking. Readers can easily look this up on http://www.reddickmilitaria.com The “rare and authentic” belt you authenticate can be found on Page 16 and sells for about $70.00 to the trade. And I understand you have made another error by attacking Prosper Keating. Mr. Keating is a first class expert, a gentleman and a former British paratrooper.As an Irishman, Mr. Keating is not to be slandered. You would be well advised to apologize to him. And why should I not address your comment? I have read some of your “expert” comments on belt buckles and, if I were the editor of a newspaper, would put them in the comics section. I am now working on a detailed article, complete with pictures, on the belt buckles of the Germans and when you have read it, then I would be interested in your comments but not before.
Mr. Royster – As you have stated that you are in possession of multiple RODO SS buckles, it would seem logical that you show these buckles on your website as you state they are exact production of the Thayer buckles. This would go a long way in showing your readers that you are backing up what you are writing about. You have also stated that you are “a published expert who has exposed many, many fakes”. The collecting community needs experts in all areas of militaria as this helps immensely those collectors who are less knowledgeable. Unfortunately, I feel that the SS buckle is not one of those fields. From my perspective Mr. Royster, you have basically sided with a friend rather than objectively and open mindedly truly review the contents of what was written by Mr. Thayer as they lack any investigative work. Again, this is my perspective. While I believe his body of work within the collecting community is sound, your replies back to JP Redeuilh and others has been nothing more than juvenile and an attack on an internet forum, it’s members, and a previous author with solid concrete evidence of the TR buckles, manufactures and methodologies. I await your posting of clear close up shots of the RODO buckles you have in your collection, front and back please. Thank you, Dan Driscoll
I have two Heer Dold (RODO) buckles in my collection. One is tropical, on a DAK uniform, and has a web tab and is on a web belt and the other is on another uniform set. I do not have any SS buckles but in the past have had a number. One was a RODO. It was identical with the ones Dr. Thayer displayed. I have just posted pictures of an original and a bad fake on my site and I hope they are of use to you. I so not suffer fools gladly and I address my comments to critics at the same level they address me. In my opinion, the level of intelligence manifested on some of the forums is extremely juvenile and badly informed. I have been collecting for fifty years, have seen many buckles and do not feel that I have to explain any of this to anyone. Dr. Thayer’s article shows genuine RODO SS EM buckles. That small dot is a period. I said that the Gottlieb SS Honor Rings were fake because they were cast. Originals were never cast. The dates inside were totally incorrect. I notice that such rings are no longer on the market. Some years ago, I took on the fine art world and proved without a doubt that the majority of bronze works by Auguste Rodin were modern fakes. That market collapsed. Then I did a number on fake Remington bronzes with the same result. My opinion? No. Cooling metal shrinks and a bronze work that is 5% smaller than a proven original is a fake. I assume many collectors have been stuck with bad RODO buckles, hence the unhappiness. Robert Dold did not make for the RZM. Robert Dold did not make for other companies. Other buckle manufacturing companies did not make for Robert Dold. One of my buckles was made in 1941 and the other in late 1943. They are made on the same dies. Ergo if a buckle appears that is different, has a different belt catch and the wrong kind of lettering on the RODO stamp, it is a fake, worth about $20.00 and suitable only for reenactors. The capacity for self-delusion is very strong but truth is might and shall prevail.
Thank you for your reply and your photos of the RODO Heer buckles.
I am trying to close a few loose thought threads so please bear with me.
– Could you provide a closer view of the post-war production Heer showing the entire reverse side?
– Can you elaborate as to the period of time since you last owned an SS RODO buckle? I state this as many facts have turned up in the last 20 yrs regarding manufactures of the SS buckle – to include RODO.
– Totally agree with you – Robert Dold did not make for the RZM. Robert Dold did not make for other companies. Other buckle manufacturing companies did not make for Robert Dold.
– Is it possible that I should be in direct discussion with Mr. Thayer rather than you as it is his article and you are providing nothing more than another medium to relay his article. It would be very beneficial to to get a Thayer buckle or 2 with clear and close photos to better ascertain what each side is haggling over. Let’s stop the war of words and get down to brass tacks with the actual buckles.
– You state, “One of my buckles was made in 1941 and the other in late 1943.” May I ask you what you feel the number was of buckles manufactured by Dold during this time frame. I ask this question as this is a long duration of time for a single die in my estimation. We know that the dies after heavy use, like anything, become very worn and likely new ones are at the ready to be used. We also know that some dies varied to a degree , as did construction of the buckle to include the catch during these transitions. Would you agree?
A quick observation: your arguments always infuse towards other elements of collecting (SS Honor Rings, Busts, CG, etc) more so than maintaining on topic which is the SS buckle by RODO. I applaud your previous undertaking of fakes however your audience wants to maintain focus.
I too, look forward to hearing from your panel of SS buckle experts (ask from DonC )
I think you would probably prefer to speak directly with Dr. Thayer. I will write him and ask him if he would have a problem with this. My first RODO buckle was made early on for the DAK. It has a web tab (these were used to secure the belt cartridge pouches) and there is a date of ‘1941’ on the leather part of the tab. The other buckle, made identically,does not have a web, or leather, tab but the color (dark blue-grey) of the buckle shows that it was made in 1943 or thereafter. Yes, dies wear out but some of the alleged RODO buckles have shoddy detail on the obverse, so poor that I doubt if any German firm would produce these. I have modern copies of buckles and some have RODO stamped into them and some have RZM (on the SS) and other marks. These are all identical so I doubt very highly if Robert Dold made all of them and since Dold did not have an RZM contract, there would never be an original RODO buckle with the ‘RZM’ mark. There are so many of these mismarked fakes floating around that I genuinely feel compassion for collectors.
Thanks a lot for the article.Thanks Again. Want more. Viteaux
Buckles? I asume that’s the article.
excellent work mr royster, i had to laugh at all the waf brain drains crying over your article, it really shows them up for what they are…..know it alls who know nothing
I hope you are aware that the empty drum makes the most noise. I have been collecting for years and know many legitimate collectors in a number of countries in Europe. We all laugh at the strange babblings coming from the WAF, and other, “collector forums.” These are nothing but showcases for opinionated ignorant persons who are basically very unsure of themselves and flock together like chickens, cackling pecking and defecating all over the landscape. I note that none of them have the courage to put their real names down in public but hide behind childish, bombastic pseudonyms like “Maryland Gauleiter” or “Captain Panzerfaust.” More realistic would be “Maryland Crossing guard” and “Captain Unemployed.” These overwrought children, however, do considerable damage to the collecting world by screaming “fake” over genuine pieces and scream even louder,m ‘genuine!” over their own, and their friends, recent pathetic fakes. And I also note the presence of sleazy dealers, hawking their own Pride of India, Pakistan, Poland or Florida items in the hopes the the boobery will buy. Petulant, self-important and always wrong, the Forum Freaks can be very entertaining. I have been accused of being at least five different people. I also make belt buckles, helmets, jock straps and boot hobnails in my spare time. These comic reliefs always seem to be more active after a good rain, a time when many such creatures emerge from under rotting logs and make noise at night.
very well put mr royster, i have been watching these 2 forums for years now (waf and war relic forum ) and even joined them for awhile, they were full of ignorant idiots who knew nothing and had names as stupid as they were, i find it amazing that when you out them for the frauds that they are ,they suddenly start crying like a 2 year old who has dropped his ice cream well done,its about time they were shown up
There is very little that can be done about such individuals. One sees them as members of religious organizations, bellowing and screaming about a mythic Jesus. Or health nuts who buy ‘Glutin Free’ shoe polish. The best way to beat them is to do as I am doing; publish original, factual material so that legitimate collectors have good references, expose fakes and fakers and let nature have its way with them. I have spent some time looking at these “forum” sites and have seen almost nothing of interest. I would never become involved with forum people because I have an aversion to dealing with ADD children.
i agree, its such a shame that these imbeciles should be allowed on these forums let alone run and moderate them, that is what is killing the militaria collecting hobby, how many genuine items have been destroyed or lost because some retard has pronounced it fake, ive seen it happen
There are two basic types of collectors, be it coin collectors or mliitaria.
There exist some coins that were never issued. The 1804 silver dollar is an example.
This was never struck or issued in 1804 but was made up years later for presentation issues for heads of foreign states.
The 1804 silver dollar did not exist in 1804, hence it is not a numismatic coin.
The copies, few in number, have been eagerly sought by rich collectors who want coins no one else has.
Also the Athenian decadrachma is very rare.
Some years ago, a supposed horde of these were “discovered” in Turkey.
Very rich collectors bought these at $500,000 a piece.
Later, it was proven, they were all fakes, made in Bulgaria to cheat rich and greedy fools.
We have similar types in the military collecting field.
They want to have something to brag about so Jimmy Atwood made up a Goering Wedding Sword, Himmler letter openers, Hitler state swords, Hitler Youth leader daggers, put all of them into his book and jammed the fakes into awestruck and stupid collectors.
And Atwood was not the only publisher of “information books.”
There are many of these digests of fakes on the market today.
On a lower level, we have, recently discovered, hundreds of belt buckle collectors who have been stuck with hundreds of fake RODO SS enlisted personnel buckles.
Dealers took original buckles, and recent fake ones, and stamped ‘RODO’ into them, got their either crooked or stupid friends on the forums to “authenticate” these worthless abortions and when Dr. Thayer wrote his accurate article on original RODO pieces, the shrieking and howling began.
It was the same with the Gottlieb “SS Honor Rings.” and fake SS Allach porcelain pieces.
After the screamings, pant-wettings and other manifestation of childish behavior passed, these items were taken to flea markets to see what could be gotten for them.
This is called the ‘Greater Fool Theory.’
Yes, the gullible and immature have done damage to the market but only to the market of investors, not genuine collectors.
Like one of the bigger dealers who loves to sell Hitler paintings and other improbable personality items, once these are exposed as worthless modern fakes, the dealer loses his customers and goes back to changing tires at the local garage.
And the person who has riker mounts of the products of India, Pakistan, Poland, the UK and China will eventually return to cutting his neighbor’s lawns and the collection will end up in the garbage can.
Never tell the truth to a True Believer because they do not want to hear it.
I have had just a couple of personal discussions with Mr. Thayer regarding his article and the photos of his RODO buckles, however, he is on to other projects so our dialogue, I believe, has been terminated. In addition, I have visited the various Forums and read what each is saying, what they are providing as evidence and why.
What I am perplexed by at this point in time, is the alarming imbalance between the camps who are calling Dr. Thayer’s buckles original and the camp who claim fake! In one camp, only yourself and Dr. Thayer believe the buckles to be original while the camp claiming buckles to be fake is growing quite rapidly and globally each day.
I am following this thread with keen interest however, the camp claiming the buckles to be fake are providing substantive evidence to their argument while Dr. Thayer has moved on without defending his article. You sir, have provided a medium for comments but reject all naysayers without anything concrete to show other than words. All arguments are defined or rejected by facts and so far the camp claiming “fake”, from my perspective, is in a commanding lead.
So I ask again, where and who are the purported SS buckle experts you stated are in agreement with Dr. Thayer and his article? My bigger concern here is, if Dr. Thayer did purchase this box of 38 RODO and other buckles…this had to be a sizable investment. If they are indeed not fake, why aren’t you fighting harder with these other SS buckle experts to prove the “fake” camp wrong? Not by bashing forums but rather empirical evidence to support your claims!
Time to step up “original” camp!
I bought, about thirty or so years ago, in Germany, six enlisted German WWII belt buckles.
One was Heer tropical with a combination leather and webbing tab, one was Luftwaffe with a leather tab and two were Waffen-SS without tabs.
The other two were Reichsbahn buckles
All were made by Robert Dold.
The leather tabs were also marked with the RODO trademark.
All of the buckles,without exception , were identical in every respect, with the buckles Dr. Thayer has shown.
On the other side, we have seen at least eighteen different alleged RODO buckles, some made by other firms with a recent RODO stamp into the metal and others which are without a doubt very recent counterfeits and with the same stamp.
But none of the metal ‘RODO’ stamps are identical.
It should be quite obvious to anyone that Dold did not make over a dozen different types so it is reasonable to assume that the mass of alleged RODO buckles now being touted as “original” are either deliberate misattributions designed to deceive or outright counterfeits.
I predict that these unoriginal variants will now be termed ‘second pattern’ or more likely ‘late war variant (in my collection!)’
Further,Dr. Thayer has an SS RODO buckle he bought in a Canadian hock shop thirty five years ago that is marked RODO and is absolutely identical with his collection depicted in the Military Advisor.
Given all of this and considering the total nonsense one sees on the so-called “forums,” I see no reason to disbelieve that many of the forum members are owners of fake RODO buckles and do not wish to admit this.
I had identical responses to my exposure of the fake “SS Honor Rings” and I suppose that there will be other such expressed unhappiness in the future over another such kind of article.
I personally do not care if hundreds of collectors do not believe Thayer.
Considering their obvious total lack of knowledge and juvenile behavior, they would be better off trying to learn facts and not embrace fictions.
In short, Thayer and I are right and the others are wrong.
i wouldnt rise to these idiots mr royster, they will drag this argument on and on and on,as you say militaria collecting isnt for them and they should go back to selling hotdogs or day care, this reminds me of when bob the nob coleman showed off all his glittering fakes from emil maurice and sold them all off to the unsuspecting collectors, did waf or wrf boot him,no they didnt,he is still a moderator, so much for integrity on those forums eh mr driscoll
Ah yes, the “Emil Maurice Collection”, famed in song and story.
Put together by that German dealer from a few original, and worthless, business cards, with a fake “Hitler painting” added and the Polish “Blood Order Prototype” medal included.
Coleman and his friends aimed at a huge profit but got nothing.
A dealer in helmets tried to sell this garbage to another collector in Georgia for $100,000 but I tipped the dealer off and the project ended.
And explaining to the collecting public that original SS Honor rings were struck, not cast and then sized on a mandrel and with a skull soldered down over the part did not endear me to the fakers.
One twit paid $11,000 for an “investment quality” ring.
I have a friend who would like to know some of these people because he has a bridge he would like to sell them.
And the hundreds of “original Hitler paintings” flooding the crooked auction markets.
Most came from the Billy Price collection and all are fake.
And the Hitler “Ehrenburgerbriefs” that were all made up after the war after the originals were burnt in 1945 by the LAH people stationed at the Berghof.
Make nice wallpaper for the lavatory.
The moderators on these idiot sites are to be trusted as far as a small child could throw them.
The general membership of the forums are basically very insecure people with a need to find support.
The moderators and their friends the dealers supply this support and rake in the money.
Remember the old saying:
“A fool and his money are soon parted.”
Mike (or whomever you are),
Please read all my comments before engaging your mouth instead of brain. Secondly, if you are going to add something of relevance to the SS RODO conversation it would be most welcomed, I am sure, by both Mr. Royster and I. What you have provided thus far is pure dribble of a run on sentences akin to a drunken bleacher bum in right field yelling at the pitcher. Your lips are so tight on Mr. Royster’s ass that you are making him rather uncomfortable. Mr. Royster is an intelligent man who can defend himself without insistent babble from the likes of you.
Let me reiterate my stance on the subject of the SS RODO buckle, which by the way is the topic at hand; If one has a different viewpoint I am 100% in favor in listening to the arguments. Differences in opinions is what make us stronger and more knowledgeable. I am a very fact based individual and those that know me realize this attribute.
It doesn’t matter who ‘Mike’ is.
He has a perfect right to express his views.
I see that Herr Saris and other purported ‘experts’ are squealing like pigs in a burning barn over Dr. Thayer’s article in the Military Observer.
I have looked at the various “expert” forums and I have seen nothing that is of any interest other than childish and vindictive babbling.
Thayer’s article showed the only type of metal enlisted personnel buckles the firm of Robert Dold (“RODO”) ever made.
Fakers and their supporters have doctored many buckles, all different, to look like Dold productions.
Now that Dr. Thayer has, inadvertently, exposed all of this fakery, those who own fake or falsely marked buckles are furious.
Also those who make and sell these are furious because his article has severely damaged their business. These faked RODO buckles can join the hundreds of “Camouflage German helmets” that are of recent production.
There were no ‘Normandy,” “Anzio” or “Stalingrad” patterns and all these pieces are nothing but original helmets some dealer has sprayed with hobby enamels.
Real camouflaged helmets had water-based paint and the fakes have enamel paints.
This is not a theory but a fact.
The Bender book on Panzers is explicit in explaining this and the book quotes, in English translation, the German period orders.
Humped RODO buckles, fake cast SS rings, modern overpaints on helmets, Berlin postwar police tunics sporting fake SS insignia, Chinese-made SS Allach porcelain, fake field marshal’s batons, fake Hitler paintings, fake military medal papers can be seen on every militaria auction, all over the Internet and, especially, on the forums but declared as “genuine.”
But then there are people who believe that aspartame causes ringworm, Jesus is moving to Texas or Hillary Clinton is honest.
I had hope for you but alas you are no better than the people you speak ill-will about. You are a condescending little man who feels your shit don’t stink. I am trying to carry on an intelligent conversation with you about SS RODO buckles and you can not, will not stay on focus.
You said you owned RODO buckles 30 or more years ago,,, bravo – please show photographic evidence of these purported buckles. Secondly, I have a hard time remembering particulars from last week so thirty+ years ago you can remember the details of these buckles is outstanding. Oh… by the way RODO never made a Reichsbahn buckle but I believe somewhere behind the iron curtain post 1945 they perhaps did.
And yes – I do care who Mike is and yes he has a right to express his feelings but when he includes my name in his retorts he needs to expect a reply.
I truly feel for your readers as you are no better than some of the forum personnel you speak of. You pound the key board but fail miserably to back up your purported theories…. and I like theories… when they come with sustenance and substantive evidence. We all can espouse our views however, it is those who properly explain and show their rational without bashing someone. It’s called integrity.
And yes, Mike ?? has every right to express his views but when he includes my name in his remarks, he needs to expect a prompt reply…eh Mike.
If the truth be known, who cares about fake RODO buckles?
You have sent me no facts, no pictures and only your demand to “have a dialog.”
Why should I go any further with this nonsense?
If you believe that certain buckles allegedly made by Robert Dold are original, why not send me pictures of your samples?
I have dozens of pictures of awful fakes and about ten pictures of original Dold buckles, plus many pictures from the period Dold catalog.
And yes, Dold did make Reichsbahn buckles.
At least their 1942 illustrated catalog shows them very clearly.
This dialog sounds exactly like the gibberish issuing from outraged collectors on the idiot “forums’
All of the jabbering sounds exactly like little girls screaming that their Barbie doll is better than someone else’s Barbie doll.
And the screaming and gross inaccuracies of the forum bloggers is very entertaining.
I repeat that if you have specific proof that Dr. Thayer is incorrect, produce it instead of sending endless complaints.
Personal opinions aren’t worth a pinch of sour owl shit.
Unless, of course, one is a Moderator or better, a Supervisor.
Then the opinions are worth less than a pinch of sour owl shit.
I intend to show ten fake RODO buckles and, for comparison, a number of genuine ones in a forthcoming article.
Then we can let genuine collectors decide for themselves what is authentic and what is fake.
And that clattering noise in the background will be fake buckles vanishing into the depths of garbage cans.
I typically don’t respond in this manner but integrity be damned.
It is not I who is spewing that these Thayer buckles are original… it is you. It is on you to provide the burden of proof of what you say to all your readers that these are indeed original. You sit a top your glass adobe hoping no one throws stones your way for fear of toppling you and your idiotic rants. My God man… are you so inept in thinking your words are proof of what is original or fake. Anyone can read books and espouse the BS you constantly rattle off but you are like our POTUS nominees, full of rhetoric – yet no sustenance. I feel for for your readers as it is apparent that some follow your words like the lost souls they are.
Your condescending manner is abhorrent and it is mind-boggling that you have any readers at all. Stating your readers never comment tells me you have more to worry about. I would love to have a f2f discussion with you without your prized keyboard at your side bailing you out with your boisterous threats.
I am now starting to believe it may be you who sold Dr. Thayer these buckles and you are trying to protect your proverbial posterior from huge embarrassment, shame and money. It will eventually come out as to who sold Dr. Thayer these bogus buckles and box as he stated it was from the same source. I would relish in helping Dr. Thayer get his money refunded which, btw, I have offered him this service.
There you are, a pseudo-expert who obviously either has a large collection of fake buckles or is “authenticating” them to shove off on others.
I have run into many similar soi disant “experts” in my life and when they start to shriek when I expose fakes that might have an impact on them, I note that it is always the kicked dog that yelps.
And you ask about the number of my readers.
We have about 5,000 people world-wide who access the site and of this number about 250 to 300 look at it every day.
I have wasted far too much time attending to your periodic and senseless eruptions so, like Dr. Thayer whose views of you match my own, I shall put you on the block.
You say you offer your services to Dr. Thayer?
What kind of services?
Cutting his grass?
Cleaning his stove?
I doubt it he would allow you in his house.
Because you would undoubtedly leave stains on his furniture.
I am certain you can much better vent your spleen on one of the forums rather than spending your time annoying your betters.
You might, if you are very fortunate, eventually find someone on the forums who would listen to you.
And in the final analysis, I ask you this thoughtful question:
Are you anybody in particular?
good to see you taking out the rubbish mr royster, these waf forum types really are abhorrent creatures,it seems that anyone speaking out or having an opinion is not allowed in the world they live in, which it seems is the sewer,it seems that they have no proof to offer on your arguments so they shout scream bully but alas it really shows that they really know nothing,how long did it take for mr driscoll to show his true colours when he realised he wasnt getting his own way,childish immature and in need of a nappy change i think eh mr baby driscoll
I would assume from the use of the word “nappy” that you are English.
You have your little girl sites and we have ours.
I have been collecting for many years and I have looked at the WAF site on and off for a number of years. I have never learned anything from these visits about collecting but a good deal about one level of the collecting community.
The WAF is filled with ignorant, self-important creatures who have no real knowledge of the collecting field but herd together like terrified sheep in a thunderstorm, hoping their forum leaders will save them from the terrors of the night.
The screeching over the vitally important subject of belt buckles is typical.
A belt buckle is not a significant item but because they are cheap and numerous, are targets for the collectors who cannot afford an Adolf Hitler painting, a Himmler carved throne or a Feldherrnhalle dagger. The sleazy dealers have stuffed the market with all manner of very fake belt buckles and forum members who now own them, are frantic to prevent any question of fakery to emerge.
And the pompous and ignorant gas bags that bellow and howl about my publications are not to be taken seriously by anyone.
Most of them still live at home with Mother and have a cheap computer in their basement apartment so they can communicate with others of their stripe.
“Captain Panzerfaust,” “Maryland Gauleiter” can, for a brief time, feel actually important as they pontificate about the eye on the eagle of a badge or the color of the ribbon on a cast pewter badge from IOffer.
And these pathetic losers band together and scream with rage at anyone who dares to attack their pathetic dreams.
it seems i have a mention on wrf by ben (im on medication ) evans for being a ass kisser, funny mr evans you seem to be the one ass kissing mr driscoll, it seems the pond life has run out of things to say that is relevant,The lies and fraudulant goings on in these so-called forums has been exposed and these so-called experts have scuttled back under their rocks , named and shamed
The wicked (and in this case, the ignorant) flee where no man persueth.
You speak of these creatures living under the rocks and rushing back there for safety.
I believe I must correct your impression.
They retreat, not under wet rocks, but to the security of their chicken coop, squawking and cackling in anger and frustration.
And a question here: Is Mr. Driscoll a Moderator on the WAF Belt Buckle Forum by any chance?
im not sure but presume so,I find it amusing that members of both forums frequently squeal and proclaim about how many members they have and how global they are but in reality when you look at them both its always the same few people posting and commenting,such is the appeal of the god like forums, mr driscoll and mr evans probably find it easy to pontificate on waf and wrf because most of the members are on medication and are fed through a straw
Please, sir, I find it offensive that you should mock mental patients.
‘Fed through a straw’ indeed!
The forum freaks, in toto, remind me of a bumper sticker I once had printed and distributed to many.
It said, in carmine letters on a white background, “Hire the handicapped. They’re fun to watch.”
Yes, their record is stuck and we hear the same chatter as if it were on an endless tape.
Stories about their heroic deeds in combat zones when in reality they scrubbed latrines or peeled potatoes.
Shy references to their stunning collections of SS or U Boat belt hooks.
Coos of true delight over a picture of one of Jimmy Atwood’s “Himmler Damascus Letter Opener,” or on a far higher level, their very own “Charlemagne SS winter camouflaged helmet.”
Much better than that old junk “Stalingrad winter helmet” in Jimmy Nosehair’s collection.
And I vote we boot Jimmy off the forum because he said I had improper activities with melons.
Very uncalled for, Jimmy, because all my friends and forum members know I am trying to quit.
keep up the good work exposing these charlatans mr royster
You may see this as good work but the forum members certainly do not.
I am viewed by them as the collector’s Anti-Christ who mocks their perfection and destroys their dreams.
I am the person who would tell bald-headed jokes to General Custer’s widow.
Or cruel gay jokes to George W. Bush.
your articles cause huge upset to the great unwashed and you can smell the fear from here , maybe if they picked up a miltaria reference book and not one full of pictures of strange shaped fruit that resemble jesus or their mother then they may learn a modicum of history that they love to espouse
I tried to send you some material on the leading lights of the forums, material I think ought not be be publicly posted. If you would be good enough to send me the proper address (the other one keeps coming back) I will enrich your day for you. This message would not be posted so no one else would see it.
not sure how anyone can talk so much about a mainly visual topic without posting any pictures, so here goes…
just for the record, i’m not in any camp, i’m just a collector who heeds opinions of other collectors, right or wrong.
not sure how anyone can talk so much about a mainly visual topic without posting any pictures, so here goes…
just for the record, i’m not in any camp, i’m just a collector who heeds opinions of other collectors, right or wrong.
I am not quite sure what is the issue here but I will do my best.
Dr. Frank Thayer collects SS military items and has been doing so for many years.
Forty or so years ago or longer, Dr. Thayer bought a RODO SS EM belt buckle in a Canadian antique shop and has had it ever since. He later bought a collection of RODO buckles after comparing them with his unquestionably original piece. He did an article for Mr. Bender’s militaria magazine, the Military Advisor.
Immediately, there was an eruption of fury from at least one dealer in buckles and a number of collectors.
Their thesis was that the buckles depicted in the magazine article were all fake.
Theirs, of course, were genuine.
Pictures were displayed of their very own, very original, buckles but almost every one was different.
The thesis that RODO changed their manufacturing techniques, and their dies, three or four times a month is utter idiocy.
What obviously has happened is that modern reproduction buckles, made in India, Poland and China, are purchased by dishonest dealers and then have a RODO stamp punched into them.
Fake buckles are about $5.00 wholesale so you can see that a dealer who sells these fakes would be furious with the Thayer article.
People who destroy dreams are never popular.